Topic - Orion Space Plane: 2001 A Space Odyssey

Copyright Infringement 2

I was first notified by Luxology that someone was complaining about me posting images from the film and blueprint images. I subsequently contacted this party, one Adam K. Johnson with an email address at Lockheed Martim, and he called me that evening. We had a pleasant conversation on the issues involved, sad though it is, it seemed to be a legitimate concern. However, Adam did not mention that he himself is a model maker, as I discovered this morning. That seems a bit odd considering that we did talk about 'models' quite a bit. Now I see that he has made models from the movie, and even informed me of the "accuracy" of the soon to be released Moebius model of Orion. May'haps it was an innocent oversight on his part, but it has caused me to look a bit deeper into the issue.

I will keep you posted on developments.

Message edited by LeonArtO3D on 2/2/2011 - 6:07 PM

Hi, Leon.

On 'infringement', my thoughts would be simply 'better left alone' in this case - especially since Lockheed Martin seems to be involved. Why anyone would even bother you about that is beyond me. You don't see anyone complaining about 'brand name' models of cars, planes, etc., etc. on the forums. But if someone is 'touchy' about posting images, blueprints, etc., I'd personally just pull them, and let it go at that. Doesn't keep you from using them privately at home as reference to model by! ;) If it's on the internet, it's fair game. Still, copyright infringement just isn't worth risking. Silly thing though. Not like it's a 'real, viable' spacecraft in use or something. It's from a 40-year-old movie fer pete's sake!

On Yazan's material - and his work is always excellent - I'm sure there are many settings that would render a more realistic look. I'm sure Yazan could suggest settings.

Nonetheless, I'll get back to work on my starfield tutorial. I'm always in favor of 'rolling your own' whenever possible. I'll be back and leave you a download link.

Don't expect too much. I'm not the PS wizard I use to be. :)


Message edited by Chuck Clayton on 2/2/2011 - 6:42 PM

Yeah... You don't want Lockheed-Martin's "men in black" knocking on your door.

On backgrounds:
There are a lot of methods for creating star fields and other "space" backgrounds, including some materials in the asset-sharing area. Here's a simple one I found online, using Photoshop. I apologize for not knowing the source, or I'd happily credit them.

MODO, and the modo community ROCKS!

Jesus, James! That's what they mean by 'big as the sky'. Very cool technique. I'll try it. Guess we have to go back to using the scrollbar to read the pages again. I do like BIG images though. LOL

Really enjoying Modeling with modo 1, 2, & 3. Meant to say this a couple of posts back, on the previous page where I talk about the new Moebius model of Orion, so I'm going to buy a couple and cut one or both up into little pieces and scan them for sectional views. Thanks for the tip.

Message edited by LeonArtO3D on 2/3/2011 - 7:30 PM

New information on Moebius Models release of the Orion. Photos and such.
Quote from lunadude :
New information on Moebius Models release of the Orion. Photos and such.

Thanks lunadude for this revelation. I wondered who was making the Moebius model. And now I think I understand his anxiety.

Well, there you have it folks. The man behind all the hooprah! about image violations is not a principle of any of the various copyright owners. He is just another modeler (in the context of legal status), who is working on 2001 projects of his own.

Adam is a very personable and friendly, not to overlook, accomplished modeler, who through his own efforts, has been, and continues to be, instrumental in the furthering of all our goals, to produce the ultimate reproductions of this virtual vehicle. Due to his work on the original blueprints, plus his modeling efforts on Orion, he may well take a leading position in the overall benefactors of our mutual interests. In this, he is one of us. Personally, I think his status in the endeavor would have been better served, by simply registering with Luxology and posting his concerns here in the forum, contributing openly to the project, and letting this thread be an even friendlier form of personal advertising. Pissing on rocks is an old and respected instinct in the animal kingdom, but open forums of friendly, cooperating, and helpful individuals, is more to our liking.

So, Adam K. Johnson, no hassle, beyond the extra work you have cause me, and the jaundiced eye cast upon you from this, I'm sure you will make up for that in the days ahead. Register with Luxology, and join the fun. We will enjoy having you here, amidst all the images i will be replacing. No secrets revealed. I know you will reveal your personal contributions when the time has come. I think you will find, we are a thick skinned lot, and don't hold grudges for long. You might have to be a little thick skinned yourself, at time like this, but what the Hell.

On the other hand, Luxology is not responsible for the things we post here in the forums, so the legal eagles couldn't get a dime out of them. And me? Hah! I've already told you my annual income in my first email to you, so you know how little you could squeeze out of me. I think the actual principles will look at this as a benefit to the estates and memory of a great old film. So, Come On Man, join the fun and forget all this petty crap.


PS: I am writing emails to all the principles holding copyrights to any of these images with a link to these pages, inviting them to comment here if they think this in any way bothers them. I think they would all thank us for covering their beauties with such devotion and love, but I will leave the evaluation up to them.

EDIT February 7th 2011: Adam K. Johnson has written to me saying his email to me and the phone call, was meant only as friendly advice, and not as dictatorial demands. I have accepted this at face value. Lets hope the powers that be feel the same way, as I've written to them with links to these pages.

Message edited by LeonArtO3D on 2/6/2011 - 6:39 PM

It has been awhile since I looked at the numbers of viewers of this thread, but as of this very split second, there have been 9,528. Everybody seems to like it, even those who think I've infringed on their rights. I was telling David Tracy, yesterday that the coolest thing about it is that the longer it exists and is active, the better it is going to be. The model will become more and more detailed, and maybe best of all, I'm giving this model to the community at large, so that each of you can have fun making your own animations of it in your own scenes, and post them back to this thread, or start your own. 3D is so cool in terms of final imagery, we are sure to produce some things that shake the world. Kubrick would be proud of us. Physical models are all well and good, but you can't make the kind of movies with them that we can, nor as quickly and inexpensively. Glad I thought of it. LOL.
As of this moment, I have only returned a few images. I'll get to it soon as possible. However, I wrote to Adam K. Johnson, telling him my intentions.

On my second visit to the site that lunadude left us a link to (above), I took a close look at the images of the kit model of Orion that Adam has made*. He told me on the phone that the model was the first 100% accurate model ever made. It may be true that it is the most accurate model ever made to date, but I have found at least one error in the design, a small matter of a components shape. There are others I noticed but this one is sharp in my mind, as I have been studying it for months, and doing test models of it for over a week. I refer to what I have been calling the 'Attitude Jets', which Adam claims are actually explosive bolts designed to blow the tail section away from the fuselage at separation. Whatever their names and purpose, their shape is burned into my mind, and I have made extensive calculations of their shape and relative distances from one another, which I will demonstrate in either this, or my next post. However, I will never be given the permission to post Adam's images in these pages, so you will have to go to that link that lunadude supplied and scroll down the page to the images of the kits parts, and save them to your computer, then compare them to the images of the original model which I will post here:

Notice that the recessed portion is close to twice the length as its width. Also, the distance between the large half bowl shapes is very close to the width of the recessed portion. So, naturally, the distance between the recesses is the width of the bowls. This is a rough comparison of their relative position.

Edit: Days have passed since I wrote the paragraph I've erased here, and a few things have come to light. I do not know what Adams motives were for doing what he did. I'm going to cut him some slack here. Anyone can make a mistake. Stepping on a rattlesnake is probably one of them.

Adams version of these explosive bolt configurations is much closer to the original shape than the kit model images posted, which were early test runs. Maybe they will fix this and maybe not. I'll reserve judgment until the kit comes out. Or till I have definitive evidence. Moebius claims that Adam is not the modeler but is an researcher and advisor on the project, that some of the model reflects his input, and others not.

Now, I am bored with all this crap, and unless someone rattles my cage, I'll forget it.

Message edited by LeonArtO3D on 2/7/2011 - 4:11 AM

Yah-Hoo! Finally could afford 'Filming the Future'. Now I can get 501! as soon as i save it up. Then it's a new computer.
Quote from LeonArtO3D :
Yah-Hoo! Finally could afford 'Filming the Future'. Now I can get 501! as soon as i save it up. Then it's a new computer.

1st or 2nd edition? There are slight difference in each. I can check if there were any Orion related ommisions/additions.
Quote from lunadude :

1st or 2nd edition? There are slight difference in each. I can check if there were any Orion related ommisions/additions.

This one:

Don't know which edition it is....Oooops...
Product Details

* Paperback: 176 pages
* Publisher: Aurum Press; 2nd edition (February 2001)
* Language: English
* ISBN-10: 1854107062
* ISBN-13: 978-1854107060
* Product Dimensions: 10.3 x 9 x 0.5 inches
* Shipping Weight: 1.6 pounds

Message edited by LeonArtO3D on 2/7/2011 - 3:20 AM

Thanks James, for getting rid of that pester scrollbar. It's been driving us nuts! I use the preview mode to test width of images and take them right up to the line, if I have a choice. Your's could be 75% bigger.

Jeeze! We are crossing the 10,000 views line as I type this! Yah-Hoo!

Message edited by LeonArtO3D on 2/7/2011 - 4:19 AM

Here ya go:

Create A Realistic Starfield

This is exactly how I do it. I knew I'd find it if I looked long enough. Greg Martin is a fantastic space artist! Be sure to read all the instructions on the right, and follow them to the letter!

I do know some other tricks for creating nebulae and such, so I may do a tutorial on this anyway. I wish Greg had done one, but it's easy enough to follow.

Fantastic! Thanks ChuckC. Well worth waiting for. I'm just getting started with it, using double my screen size for this first one. I won't be posting it full sized here, to avoid that scrollbar problem. Looks like this picks up where James version leaves off, with some variables of it's own. Your own variables would be cool too.

Although this link is on that page, the tutorial for creating a planet also has some interesting and interrelated points:

Message edited by LeonArtO3D on 2/8/2011 - 4:56 AM

Quote from LeonArtO3D :
Fantastic! Thanks ChuckC. Well worth waiting for. I'm just getting started with it, using double my screen size for this first one. I won't be posting it full sized here, to avoid that scrollbar problem. Looks like this picks up where James version leaves off, with some variables of it's own. Your own variables would be cool too.

Yeah, the main difference is the initial amount of 'noise'. Cranking it all the way to 400 doesn't give you nice points of light, but often squarish looking things (which would actually be great for distant galaxies or something).

Another thing I would mention regarding Greg's tutorial: Check any box that says 'Use Legacy' in PS CS3 and above. It's lacking that info in the tutorial.

Have fun!

Something I found by accident at the following address:

This is just an image, so the links won't work. You'll have to go to the actual page for that...LOL


It was the image of Orion that grabbed my attention enough to start reading, and the more I read, the more interested I became. This is looking more and more like the application I was looking for early in this thread. Apparently you can go exploring in Orion, or discovery, or the POD, for that matter.

I've just downloaded the free application and various bits of's only 32bit far as I've seen. I'll follow up with my evaluation and please do yourselves. Anyone who already knew about this, please chime in and tell us what you know.

One hour later and I'm thrilled! Easy to get lost but also easy to find your way back with a mouse click. Under documentation, there is a png image of all the keyboard shortcuts, etc.

Message edited by LeonArtO3D on 2/8/2011 - 7:01 PM

Celestia is wonderful. Lots of great add-ons.

BTW, there is a portable version, that you can run from a thumb drive.
FYI, I see the Orion kit is already in preorder, at...

Monsters In Motion:

CultTVMan (cheapest price of the three):

Starship Modeler:
Thanks lunadude for those links and tips. Looks like it won't be long now till we see another new and improved Orion from Moebius. Frank Winspur (Moebius), can be mighty proud of this new model.

My first purchase of a kit of Orion III will be the 17" version by Ian Walsh (Stargazer). Or, perhaps I should say kit(s). I just found this link to the cargo version of Orion, Orion II.

While I don't expect to be modeling this version in 3D, I think it's particularly cool. Of all the models available today, the Orion III Ian made is the kit to buy. At 17" it is of a comfortable size, large enough to see more detail, while being small enough not to take over your den. Most of us, I suspect, would only buy and put together, one of these models, as an object of art. It's accuracy level is the best so far, and the price is not artificially exaggerated. I particularly like the thought and depth of calculation that went into doing this model, complete with an interior. At $114.00 it's perfect. Of course, If you have an extra $35,000 laying around for a model of a movie prop, then, congratulations!

Just an off the wall thought...If I had the extra capital, &, once I have all the correct dimensions for Orion, I would order made a styrene injection mold for a 36" model of Orion III. I would produce double the expected market for them, and sell them a hair over cost. It would be a gift to the memory of this film, instead of the flowers I would have sent to Kubrick.
Thanks leon

If you want to see more of the Orion II, and my other 2001 models see here models for sale.htm

(I cant get the link to go 'live' so please copy and paste into address bar)

Message edited by IanStargazerWalsh on 2/12/2011 - 12:19 PM

Update February 13, 2011

The dust is still settling, and I'm beginning to get a handle on the side trips this thread keeps throwing at me, trips that keep me from doing only modeling work. Things like playing in Photoshop with starscapes, following other forums on 2001 and modeling, and answering emails from all over the world. Yesterday I listened to Brad's week old modcast (The Return of the Cow), and tonight the latest one, trying to catch up. Sometimes, I have to escape into a good sci-fi novel, and one I'd re-read a dozen times, prompted me to do some research and I found a collection I hadn't even known about on the same series of stories, so I bought "Hammers Slammers" by David Drake, volumes 2 $ 3. Got them Friday, and here it is Saturday night and I've read 320 pages of the first volume (II). Saturday, my copy of Filming the Future arrived, and it's already cut up into individual pages for handy scanning, and I am inspired.

I've adjusted my budget for my next check, squeezing in the Dan Ablan 501 Courseware, just ahead of getting 501 itself, while the price is still low. But then, I start the new computer project. That's a long ranger but i have to do it that way. I'm building my own, as I can afford its component parts. Since I am taking a big step upward, I'll have a lot more heat than I have, so I'm thinking of water cooled...more later...

Later: I must have cleared out some of the logjam cloggin' my mind, 'cause the ideas are exploding in all directions. For one thing, my computer will take quite awhile to buy and I won't be able to use it till it's almost complete. However, that is not written in stone, as it were. I can buy parts for the new machine and use them on this one, in the meantime, such as a Wacom Tablet; Camera and Mic, which I can use to participate in the MUG webinars. The Wacom will be my first tablet, but Hot-Damn! I can get it now; or soon as I've picked up 501. That sheds a whole new light on my budget plans.

Today my plans are to complete the replacement of images removed, and get back to doing some drawings. There goes another idea...I getting a new scanner ASAP. That will help a lot with this project. This reversal of the order of making purchases for the computer may well solve a side issue that had been bothering me. I kept having thoughts like, 3 months after buying the motherboard, I'd find a new one on the market that was way better for my needs. I hate the idea of throwing good money after bad. Conservation of resources is the rule I have to live by, at least until I'm independently wealthy. LOL.

You all remember this image of the poster, with the sketch of the Orion's launch vehicle:

Well, someone is making a model of it. That is very good news! I was a little dubious about modeling it myself, with so little to go on. I'll get back to you as news of this comes out.

Message edited by LeonArtO3D on 2/12/2011 - 10:50 PM

Quote from IanStargazerWalsh :
Thanks leon

If you want to see more of the Orion II, and my other 2001 models see here models for sale.htm

(I cant get the link to go 'live' so please copy and paste into address bar)

You can fix that yourself...Just Edit your post, select the address and hit the yellow word "Link" above the message box, like I did this one.

And you're welcome.
I trust you've dug through the Pan Am Space Clipper "Orion" Thread
on Hobby Talk.

Opps, of course you did. Saw your post there.

Message edited by lunadude on 2/13/2011 - 6:13 AM

I thought I'd start a series of image based, step by step modeling process of details I'm working out, starting with the explosive bolt configurations. This first series I'm starting mid-stream so to speak, because that's where I am right now, but I'll slip in the previous steps here and there as it occurs to me.

First of all, I did not have a clear understanding of what these shapes were for, thinking from the beginning, they were attitude jets that faced forward. Nor did I have a clear enough image of them from the front detailing the bowl shapes interior. I was searching for an aerospace engineer who could enlighten me concerning their design functions, and having no luck. I even wrote to Fredrick Ordway, but have not heard back from him, and have learned that that is most unlikely anyway these days considering his age, and busy schedule.

I did however find what I was looking for from an unlikely source, considering how we started our relationship. Before we had a falling out, Adam K. Johnson and I had a few days of friendly discussion, and I sent him some images of what I was concerned with, and he was very helpful. It was he who informed me that these were no attitude jets, but were explosive bolts used to separate the forward part of the ship from the main launch engines, in much the same way the solid fuel boosters are separated from the shuttle after launch. Adam graciously sent me a render he did of the configuration of these shapes, which answered my questions entirely, and cleared up my confusion about their function. So again, I would like to thank Adam for his helpfulness in this most important design.

Having worked out the basic polygon structure for the upper part of the fuselage, which I'll go over later, I had a base on which to work out the explosive bolt configurations. Basicly, that base is a 17' diameter cylinder, split at the half way point and the sides go straight down from there. In this first illustration, you can see that shape from the inside in this screen grab, and the underside of the bowl shape with all the vertices selected along its contact level with the hull.

This bowl shape is not the final version, as you may be able to see, the inner edge is too sharp as yet, while I have rounded off the outer edge at its face. It serves to work out some of the other problems, which I'll detail for you. At this point, I have selected the vertices, to copy to a new layer, in order to make a cutout pattern to cut the bowl shape from the hull. I have already completed the work on the first bowl and it's cutout, and this is the second bowl. At this point I have copied the verts to the new layer, where I will select them in a counter-clockwise direction and hit the "P" key to make a polygon in that shape. You will also notice that I have set the Action Center to Selection and aligned the Work Plane to the selection of those verts you see hi-lited.

Sounds simple, right? Well, if you just copy/paste all the verts, it won't work. First you have to deselect them in the new layer, and then painstakingly re-select them in a counter-clockwise rotation. It's hard to see them, so I turned off the Show Work plane, in Visibility Options under the style mode selector (where you choose wireframe or open GL). I also turned on Show Vertices, in the same menu, but that was after I snapped this shot:

I'm working my way around the inside edge of the bowl, and it's much easier now that I've adjusted those settings. Ah, here that sharp edge I'm talking about. I'll fix that when I build the actual bowl, once I've stopped making obvious mistakes.

Moving around to the outside verts now, and hitting the "P" key.

After this I Thicken the polygon just enough to comfortably cross any of the curves of the hull, then I move it to straddle the hull, which id the darker line in the front view. I also give all the cutouts of a particular type, a unique color to set them apart. Violet for the Bowl cutouts.

That makes two, Ooops! I screwed up the first one. Have to do it over. Oh, if you have trouble with the thicken tool, as I have periodically,, just copy/paste the polygon over itself and move the copy up to where you want it. That's what happened to this first one I did. On the next page, you see the red cutouts for the recessed portion of the configuration. The purple one is so well made that it is completely hidden by the bowl.

Message edited by LeonArtO3D on 3/10/2011 - 1:02 PM

Below, I have cut out the hull for the recessed portion of the configuration. It looks like I've made the flat divider a little too wide. That's easy to fix.

Now I really am going to crash for the night.

Message edited by LeonArtO3D on 2/16/2011 - 11:55 AM