Notice: Purchasing, Trials and Accounts Have Changed. What You Need To Know: Part II >>

Topic - Orion Space Plane: 2001 A Space Odyssey

Page 5 of 11
First  Previous  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  Next  Last 
Just had to do this:

2011.1.1

"Look, Ma, four ones!"

Edit: Actually, if I'd included the time, it would be:

2011,01.01 - 10:01 (6 1's, 5 0's & 1 2).

Message edited by LeonArtO3D on 1/2/2011 - 12:23 PM

_____________________________ Avatar___________Midworld______________Fraud?____________________________

Over the holidays I took a break from this project to re-read a favorite sci-fi novel Midworld, written by Alan Dean Foster. He's my favorite author, and i thought to model some of his spacecraft, after I complete this project. In the course of researching this idea, I stumbled across a growing mountain of forums that all point out that the story in Avatar was ripped off by Cameron from Midworld. I must confess, for financial reasons at the time, I have yet to see Avatar, but this story is so hot, I can put it off no longer. I've read Midworld, perhaps 10 times over the years. It was published in 1975, so I've had plenty of time in 36 years to do this. The story is well worth a re-read. It is also such a unique story, that one viewing of Avatar would have made the connection obvious. So, in about an hour, I'm going to see Avatar, and discover for myself if Cameron is as big a fraud as he appears to be, in the eyes of many hundreds of sci-fi readers who have pointed out all the numerous bits of the story that were lifted directly from Midworld, without credit or payment.

This in no way reflects on the fantastic work of thousands of artists who worked on the film, nor any of the other production team members.

I won't comment on this further in this thread but will leave a link here to another thread for this purpose, when I start it.

http://forums.luxology.com/discussion/topic.aspx?id=52735

For those who want to see for themselves, google "Avatar Midworld Alan Dean Foster".

Message edited by LeonArtO3D on 1/4/2011 - 8:11 PM

Such a great seed.a motivating project very nice thank you
Hello Orion III fans, modonauts, and all you other sci-fi lovers out there. Sorry this is taking so long, but we've had to move Orion into it's new Rebirth Assembly area. Our thanks to Mike James for letting us use the Boeing building, to complete the project. We have our own airfield for supplies, and later on we will be able to use the launch facility across the field, currently under construction. We're just getting set up here, as you can see, but we've got the Orion Test Model suspended in the shop and the work on the wing reattachment is all set up. The assembly crew will be in tomorrow with their equipment to set up. It's kind of quiet around here tonight, but come 5 AM this place will begin to buzz.

Here's a snapshot of the new facility. It's huge! Nearly 15 million cubic feet. Orion is 175 feet long, and hangs suspended in the center of the 90' tall shop.




This is about the clearest view you'll have of her for awhile, but we'll give you a lot of detailed closeups in the days, weeks and months ahead.
Looks good, Leon!

MODO, and the modo community ROCKS!
Visit www.mikejamesmedia.com

Quote from LeonArtO3D :
_____________________________ Avatar___________Midworld______________Fraud?____________________________

Over the holidays I took a break from this project to re-read a favorite sci-fi novel Midworld, written by Alan Dean Foster. He's my favorite author, and i thought to model some of his spacecraft, after I complete this project. In the course of researching this idea, I stumbled across a growing mountain of forums that all point out that the story in Avatar was ripped off by Cameron from Midworld. I must confess, for financial reasons at the time, I have yet to see Avatar, but this story is so hot, I can put it off no longer. I've read Midworld, perhaps 10 times over the years. It was published in 1975, so I've had plenty of time in 36 years to do this. The story is well worth a re-read. It is also such a unique story, that one viewing of Avatar would have made the connection obvious. So, in about an hour, I'm going to see Avatar, and discover for myself if Cameron is as big a fraud as he appears to be, in the eyes of many hundreds of sci-fi readers who have pointed out all the numerous bits of the story that were lifted directly from Midworld, without credit or payment.

This in no way reflects on the fantastic work of thousands of artists who worked on the film, nor any of the other production team members.

I won't comment on this further in this thread but will leave a link here to another thread for this purpose, when I start it.

http://forums.luxology.com/discussion/topic.aspx?id=52735

For those who want to see for themselves, google "Avatar Midworld Alan Dean Foster".


Thank you for not dragging this any further than it has been done already. Please, lets not go there...Again. Let's instead focus on your project here and leave the rest of the baggage out.

So FOCUS on your project at hand which I feel is looking great! I have always loved this spacecraft and like you was totally blown away when I first saw it. So I was very thrilled to see someone going this route. What you have done so far looks great.
Yay! finally, a new image update! :)

looking better all the time!
The hanger is nice and real.

..............md :)
Thanks guys. This all came about while researching the non-existent landing gear for Orion, which i am currently modeling for Orion III, after those on the Space Shuttle. Since there was no scene in the movie that called for landing gear, they didn't bother modeling them, but they did model the doors for them. Unfortunately, the plan drawing for them, are locked up in legal agreements for awhile yet, but I will be getting them as soon as it's possible. Meanwhile, there are numerous images that have inspired me to to treat this as if it were real, in even more detail that done by the men at Sci-Fi Air Show. Here's one image that I greatly reduced in size to fit on this page, but you can get the full sized image by googling 'Space Shuttle Landing Gear'.

Anyway, here's one of my inspirations:



This gives you some idea of what the shop will look like soon.
I thought I'd clarify what is happening with the project at this point. As stated above, the model you see here is the original Test Model. It is number one of four models. This one is in only a few instances, accurate, and only vaguely proportional. It is the correct length of 175' and most of the features are more or less close to their eventual location. The purpose of this model is to test various changes to the geometry, and relative placement of features. Notice in the image below, the abrupt angular changes to the curvature of the Bell Housing for the engines. In model two this will be a smooth curvature, beginning and ending in the same location, but all together redesigned.

Notice the Attitude Jets that encircle the hull at this point. While what you see here is still very defective, a few things have been corrected, such as, the extra set of jets has been removed, which you can see in all the earlier versions of this model, and the original model by B.J. West, as well as the drawings of Simon Atkinson, that all this was based on.

Early on, I stated that my main goal was to reproduce as accurately as possible, the original model used in the making of the movie, and that maybe, I would produce a model without all the defects of the original they used. Now that "maybe" is definite. I will produce all of the versions, but now my primary goal is a final, scientifically accurate model as designed by the scientific consultants, and/or as would have been designed if that part was used in the film. This version will have landing gear that works in animation, and where necessary, I will design or adapt designs that exist, such as from the Shuttle. In the case of this version, there will be a definite separation between the Bell Housing of the engine, and the Bell of the Attitude Jet at the center of the ring of jets, as you see below, but not as extreme a separation. This ultimate version will be the 4th and final version.

Model 2 will be the accurate reproduction of the movie model, and as such, it will have the intersection of these two different parts as shown in the image on page 4 of the thread.




I hope that is clear. 4 types of model. 1= a working test model. 2=an accurate reproduction of the original. 3= same as 2 but with a few corrections for scientific accuracy but with no added features. 4=Like 3, only with added features such as landing gear, antenna, etc.

This is not the order I am modeling in. There already exists bits and pieces of all 4 versions. I will model what and when as inspiration strikes. Some features on each version are possible to do now, but some depend on information that will not become available for quite a while yet. The shape of the nose, or mouth of the ship is 98% accurate now, whereas it started about 75%.

Then there is the drawings, the blueprints. It is strange, but these are not likely to be finished till the very last, but to some extent, are necessary before I can start the accurate version of Orion. True. Each element that I figure out it's exact location, can be used to add that information to any of the final models, and the drawings. Keep in mind that I am still in the research phase of the project. There is information I should be getting in a month or so, while other, I know I won't have for 9 or 10 months. Fortunately, most of that is in the finest details that few of you will ever notice, unless you decide to model her yourself.

If anything here is confusing to you, please ask, and I'll make it clear.
Quote from LeonArtO3D :
I thought I'd clarify what is happening with the project at this point. As stated above, the model you see here is the original Test Model. It is number one of four models. This one is in only a few instances, accurate, and only vaguely proportional. It is the correct length of 175' and most of the features are more or less close to their eventual location. The purpose of this model is to test various changes to the geometry, and relative placement of features. Notice in the image below, the abrupt angular changes to the curvature of the Bell Housing for the engines. In model two this will be a smooth curvature, beginning and ending in the same location, but all together redesigned.

Notice the Attitude Jets that encircle the hull at this point. While what you see here is still very defective, a few things have been corrected, such as, the extra set of jets has been removed, which you can see in all the earlier versions of this model, and the original model by B.J. West, as well as the drawings of Simon Atkinson, that all this was based on.

Early on, I stated that my main goal was to reproduce as accurately as possible, the original model used in the making of the movie, and that maybe, I would produce a model without all the defects of the original they used. Now that "maybe" is definite. I will produce all of the versions, but now my primary goal is a final, scientifically accurate model as designed by the scientific consultants, and/or as would have been designed if that part was used in the film. This version will have landing gear that works in animation, and where necessary, I will design or adapt designs that exist, such as from the Shuttle. In the case of this version, there will be a definite separation between the Bell Housing of the engine, and the Bell of the Attitude Jet at the center of the ring of jets, as you see below, but not as extreme a separation. This ultimate version will be the 4th and final version.

Model 2 will be the accurate reproduction of the movie model, and as such, it will have the intersection of these two different parts as shown in the image on page 4 of the thread.




I hope that is clear. 4 types of model. 1= a working test model. 2=an accurate reproduction of the original. 3= same as 2 but with a few corrections for scientific accuracy but with no added features. 4=Like 3, only with added features such as landing gear, antenna, etc.

This is not the order I am modeling in. There already exists bits and pieces of all 4 versions. I will model what and when as inspiration strikes. Some features on each version are possible to do now, but some depend on information that will not become available for quite a while yet. The shape of the nose, or mouth of the ship is 98% accurate now, whereas it started about 75%.

Then there is the drawings, the blueprints. It is strange, but these are not likely to be finished till the very last, but to some extent, are necessary before I can start the accurate version of Orion. True. Each element that I figure out it's exact location, can be used to add that information to any of the final models, and the drawings. Keep in mind that I am still in the research phase of the project. There is information I should be getting in a month or so, while other, I know I won't have for 9 or 10 months. Fortunately, most of that is in the finest details that few of you will ever notice, unless you decide to model her yourself.

If anything here is confusing to you, please ask, and I'll make it clear.


Makes sense to me... Good luck!
Hi Folks.

Just came across this forum, and the comment that the Contact section of my website isn't working. Apologies. I'll check it out.

Meanwhile I'll be happy to chat with you anytime. Drop me an email. SACreativearts@aol.com.

Simon Atkinson
And very much enjoying all the superb images and artwork by the way!

Message edited by SACreativearts on 1/21/2011 - 6:58 PM

"One other thing. I've pointed out, as have others, the flaws in Simon Atkinson's drawings, but these are not his fault. Like all thoughtless and unnecessary deadlines, they are destructive. Simon was forced to turn over these drawings before they were completed. He was not given the time required to do them properly, though he tried to convince them, some idiot thought it better to try to push the river. So, Simon, if you're reading this, you have our sincere appreciation for doing such a great job in the little time that was afforded you. We have all loved and enjoyed your drawings for they paved the way for some of our own creative endeavors. Thanks."


Your Comments are much appreciated. One of the curses of commercial illustration is that deadlines are fixed! And the deadlines on 2001: Filming The Future were very, very tight. It is often forgotten that at the time Piers Bizony and I struggled to get the book completed there was so little information available. It was gradually unearthed as we went but on several occasions after I had completed artworks. I have often considered revisting these beautiful ships and re-doing the artwork to reflect the details unearthed subsequently, but, you know there are so many great illustrators producing photo-perfect CGI art that I don't feel there's a place anyomore for this style of traditional illustration. So, imperfections aside, I hope my artwork has provided some happiness over the years - and continued the interest in the greatest of all Sci Fi movies.
Simon Atkinson! Great to hear from you in these pages. Being one of the "founding fathers" of our recreative efforts, all of us have, at one time or another, had questions we would ask of you. I can't tell you the number of times I have wished you had revisited the drawings, to make all six views, as accurate as it is possible to do. Then I'd ask how you determined the exact width of the hull at any given point, for example. Actually, I'd want to know your thoughts on deriving measurable elements from all these perspective photos.

My own process of doing the same is so painfully slow and the results so partial. I study all these photos and correlate all the data I've read with all the drawings I've done. All during this process my subconscious mind is integrating these bits and pieces, putting them back together in a way I've never considered before, in a way that is to some extent, measureable. These "Ah-Ha!" moments started out few and far between, but increased in frequency with time. That part of the process can not be rushed in any way, which is in conflict with my impatience to see immediate results.

The other side of this coin, which is making orthographic views from perspective photos...it seems to me I've forgotten something I used to know about the process, for I don't remember it ever being this difficult to reverse this process. This too becomes easier as I go along, but again, I'm just not used to this kind of project. Most modeling projects, either I am doing the designing as I go along, or I have a set of plans or an object before me to model from, and even so, approximation are perfectly alright. Not in this case. Accuracy is critical in this case, after all the approximations that have gone before.

Back in the beginning, I didn't want to believe it, that this was looking like it would take a year or more to complete, mainly because the resource data would not be available till much later on. I was kind of hoping that I would be able to model most of Orion accurately, early on and just have very close up details to add to it as the major data became available. That may prove to be the case, and I'm just reacting from impatience.

I've read many a project report or WIP, that was put on a shelf for a long period of time while data was gathered. The authors of these reports seldom if ever mention the impatience to get on with it! My own seems to eat at me. Though I must confess, each time I experience that Ah-Ha moment where something clicks into place in my minds eye, that feeling blasts all the rest of it out of the scene.

Just wondering if I am alone in this agony and ecstasy.

EDIT: In re-reading some of the above passages, I'm struck by the comparison of this experience to that of being under a deadline. I'll take this experience, any day, over deadlines. My impatience is a driving force that keeps me at it. Plus, I have it so much easier that others who went before me. Just look at those marvelous details of the cockpit area that have not been available before! These are to die for! It's so thrilling to have such new data to work from.

Message edited by LeonArtO3D on 1/22/2011 - 8:26 AM

It's possible that you might be interested to see the copies I have of the original studio plans for the ORION? 2 sheets with side elevation and plan views.

Let me see if I can photograph them and post here. Give me a day or so.

One point raised by ALIEN modelmaker Martin Bower who politely pointed out to me that the hull over the cockpit is slightly lifted, and flattened. I'd missed that!
Quote from SACreativearts :
It's possible that you might be interested to see the copies I have of the original studio plans for the ORION? 2 sheets with side elevation and plan views.

Let me see if I can photograph them and post here. Give me a day or so.

One point raised by ALIEN modelmaker Martin Bower who politely pointed out to me that the hull over the cockpit is slightly lifted, and flattened. I'd missed that!


Thanks Simon.

We are very much interested in studio plans, but if possible, rather than photograph them, is it possible to have them scanned at high resolution? That way, nothing gets distorted, and they are measurable and scalable.

Also, for transferring the scans, the hi-rez (large size) make them too big to post here. They would need to be hosted for download at their full size. Then I will provide a permanent home for them for long term downloads, without reducing their value by scaling them down.

Re cockpit hull: At the bottom of page one of this thread, is a small image of Orion III, but here is a blow up of the cockpit area of that small image from page 1. It shows the true contours of the cockpit and how it differed from the surrounding contours.


Images removed by Leon. See below for details.

Message edited by LeonArtO3D on 2/1/2011 - 2:04 AM

Scanning vs Photos of source material

For those not familiar with image distortion in photography, vs. scanning, here's a few observations.

A blueprint is a scanned copy of a scale drawing, and therefore, it is measurable. If you scan the blueprint, you get an exact copy of the original. But if you photograph it, you introduce perspective distortion, and the print can no longer be measured.

However, if the photograph is of high enough quality, and the drawing included measurements, for everything, & these numbers can be read, then all is not lost.

We have many photos of blueprints that are so reduced in size and of such low quality that the dimension lines can not be read. As I have shown, and those who have actually read these pages, have read, the perspective distortion can not be removed by further distortion.

Why not? Let's start with an example of the very least distortion we can have. Let's say you have rig set up to mount your camera and hold your blueprint, dead centered on each other. Your drawing is a dashed line from the center to one of the corners of your drawing, consisting of 1" segments of lines and spaces: _ _ _ _ _

You could scale the image so that the centerline is indeed 1" long, but each segment, going closer to the corner, would be just a little bit shorter than the previous segment, for the simple reason that it was further from the lens. The further from your eye, the smaller an object appears.

That is with the most ideal set up. Suppose you have this:

Image removed by Leon. Sorry folk's.

The camera was not centered in any way, and the quality is so low that the numbers can not be read. On page 3 of this thread is a blow up of this image that an attempt to correct has been made. There is no frame of reference for size/scale.

Message edited by LeonArtO3D on 2/1/2011 - 6:55 PM

Just got this notice from Simon via email and thought some of you may be interested in it.


Hi,

For anyone who's ever contemplated becoming a professional Modelmaker but hasn't known how to go about becoming one there is now an opportunity to learn the skills required for Modelmaking for the Film & Tv Industry at the UK's premier college for Modelmaking training from Simon Atkinson and other industry - experienced lecturers at the City of Glasgow College (formerly the Glasgow Metropolitan)

Extensive 2 year HND & 1 year HNC courses in many aspects of Modelmaking for all areas of Industry including Movies, TV, SFX miniatures, with additional Advertising ,Engineering, Product design, Prototypes and Architectural Modelmaking units. Also extensive 2D, Graphic Design, Illustration and photography - all under one roof! Fully equipped workshops and lecturers with full and extensive industrial experience.

Enquires can be made through the college website and are now being taken for both full-time NC and HND courses.

www.glasgowmet.ac.uk/3ddesign.aspx?cat=Full time



further information via Simon at simon.atkinson@glasgowmet.ac.uk



Best wishes.

Simon.

http://www.simonatkinsoncreativearts.com/
Hello John from StarshipModellers.com,

Feel free to register and post here, anytime. That goes for all the rest of you modelers. We are still looking for any kind of source material for this ship.
On Copyright Infringement and the removal of images

It seems that I am in violation of copyright infringement with any images from the movie, and any drawings made by the studio, and perhaps more. I have spoken with the authorities on this matter and there is no chance of getting permission to post these images. They are all currently being published and since I am not a publisher as such, and permission is only being granted to publishers, I can't get permission to post them. I can and will be using them to build my models, and my thanks to all of you who have contributed to this memorial to a great movie and model design. I am saddened by this development but I respect the rights of property owners. I can publish very small images, say 50kb in size, and will try to redo any references so at least you can see what image I'm referring to in the dialog of this WIP. I ask that any of you who have quoted any of my post that included an image, please delete the image part of the reference, as soon as possible.

Probably needless to say, but there will be no problem posting my own drawings, which will be as accurate as humanly possible, as there is no problem posting you own drawings and model renders of Orion III.

The book(s) being published will be on the market sometime this year and will be loaded with goodies for us all to use.

I have it on very good authority, that a physical model, soon to be put on the market by Moebius, is 100% accurate, and can be measured with calipers for those in need of reference material beyond what I will be providing. I plan to buy a couple of them and one, I'll fill with foam and slice the Hell out of it to scan for sectional views for one of my test models.

Yours Regretfully
LeonArtO3D

Edited for spelling errors.

Message edited by LeonArtO3D on 2/1/2011 - 6:53 PM

Hi, Leon.

I noticed Yazan has a 'galactic' material in the Share section. I haven't experimented with it yet, but thought you might be interested. You can download it here:

http://www.luxology.com/asset/materials/view.aspx?id=1049

Probably better than anything this broken down ol' man can do. I can still do a PS tutorial if you want, but I'm not very good at those either. And everyone around here is probably better than me at PS too. ;)

Chuck
Quote from LeonArtO3D :
On Copyright Infringement and the removal of images

...The book(s) being published will be on the market sometime this year...


I'll believe it when I see it. This has been promised for many years.

As far as the takedown request ... I've complied, and removed the posted images, converting them to links ... to the originals on Douglas Trumbull's site.

Message edited by lunadude on 2/1/2011 - 8:33 PM

Quote from lunadude :


I'll believe it when I see it. This has been promised for many years.

As far as the takedown request ... I've complied, and removed the posted images, converting them to links ... to the originals on Douglas Trumbull's site.


Thanks, lunadude. It's a sad state of affairs to encounter in the middle of such a great project. A script written by mindless juveniles full of petty jealousies. Definitely unworthy of the film on which it centers.
Quote from ChuckC :
Hi, Leon.

I noticed Yazan has a 'galactic' material in the Share section. I haven't experimented with it yet, but thought you might be interested. You can download it here:

http://www.luxology.com/asset/materials/view.aspx?id=1049

Probably better than anything this broken down ol' man can do. I can still do a PS tutorial if you want, but I'm not very good at those either. And everyone around here is probably better than me at PS too. ;)

Chuck



Hey ChuckC!

Thanks for lifting my spirit out of this quagmire, and thanks for the tip. I'll play with it soon as I can. Nothing has changed since the last time I said yes to your tutorial. But, I'll pester you about it if you like. Want to see me run in circles, jump and shout? Yay, ChuckC! Go get 'em Bay-Be! LOL

Ah, it's good to smile again. I'm going to use this adversity to sharpen my determination to make this project even better.

Message edited by LeonArtO3D on 2/2/2011 - 1:44 AM

An experiment with the new Galaxy material by Yazan Malkosh, with some color adjustments and Orion III a long way from earth.



A few adjustments later:



I don't care for the intensity level here, but like the color better than the original purple stars. However the preset is easy to use. Just create a half sphere, I scaled mine up to 1000' before deleting half of it. Flipped the polygons to the inside and dragged the preset onto the selected dome. Then played with the color. The other controls, I'll have to learn to control to get the star patterns I prefer, such as the band of the Milky Way.

With my latest changes to the Orion Test Model, the cockpit and passenger windows have disappeared. LOL. This entire model will soon be replaced, but I wanted to have a much more accurate model to replace it, and many measurements are still missing. The inaccuracies of this one is bad enough...I don't want to put another inaccurate one just because it looks a little better. I want it right, at least in the most basic features, such as fuselage contours.

Message edited by LeonArtO3D on 2/2/2011 - 6:19 PM

Page 5 of 11
First  Previous  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  Next  Last